We knew that we would get a lot of response to our last bulletin, but we really were not prepared to get as much as we did. Expecting it to be as much as 50% negative, we were surprised that it was over 99% positive. We also have had requests for almost 50,000 additional copies, and they are still coming in. It does seem that this message struck a responsive chord in the body of Christ. It was also encouraging that most who disagreed with our positions in that bulletin, responded with such grace and maturity. Some challenged us with excellent questions that deserve to be addressed, and which I am taking this opportunity to do.
Do you believe that Christians should abstain from political activity?
No. It is our right and responsibility as citizens to be involved in the political process. Christian leaders helped to establish this nation, have made many of the great contributions to its development, and hopefully will help guide our future. However, Christians have access to more power through prayer than we will ever have through the political process, even if we elected Christians to every political of office. Our last bulletin was not at all meant to discourage Christians from being a part of the political process, but to reevaluate and reestablish the proper priorities.
The church’s power to effect society is extremely limited by the ballot box, but is unlimited through prayer, repentance and the preaching of the gospel. Twelve years of conservative political leadership in this country did very little to effect the moral landscape of the country. Even the now overwhelmingly conservative Supreme Court has done little or nothing against abortion, or the other grievous moral and political infections in the country. This is not even meant as a negative reflection on the government, but we must recognize that it is very limited in what it can accomplish in these areas.
The church has a responsibility to promote righteous leadership in government, and at times challenge unrighteous leadership, as we have abundant examples of in both the Old and New Testaments, but we must not continue to expect the government to do our job. Not only abortion, but infanticide, was a major problem in the first century Roman Empire, but the writers of the New Testament did not even mention the issue. Their silence was not because they were ignorant of the problem, and certainly not because they thought that this was acceptable, but because they were not going to waste their time flailing at the branches—they were putting their ax to the root of the tree—sin and estrangement from God. When men are reconciled to God, abortion and every other evil will be dealt with.
Do you believe that pro-life activists are extremists?
I think some of them are, but certainly not all. Many of those that I do consider extremists I still have a high regard for. Those who get carried to extremes are usually those who care more deeply. If Satan cannot stop us he will then try to push us too far. Many of those who have been pushed to extremes are the spiritual warriors who the enemy just could not stop, so he is now trying to push them past the limits of their authority and calling. This is not to justify going to extremes, as they usually do even more damage to the cause than when we are stopped, but I do respect those who are making such great sacrifices for their beliefs.
Extremism Leads To Terrorism
Most of us have gone to extremes in some areas in our lives and have come back to a more accurate walk. However, there is a line that can be crossed into extremism from which few recover, especially when they become addicted to the attention. This statement may sound extreme, but the same evil spirit that motivates terrorists is seeking to gain entry into the Pro-life movement, as well as other righteous political movements. It is the same spirit of delusion that seeks to push men to extremes on both the right and the left. Some (not all) in the pro-life movement are becoming dangerously open to this spirit.
Extremism drives one farther and farther from reality. First they begin to judge others by how much devotion they have to their cause. Then they start to perceive everyone who does not totally agree with them as enemies. Then they start to overreact to deviations and perceived threats to their agenda with increasingly extreme measures. If this is not recognized and repented of by leaders of these movements, the consequences are going to be increasingly tragic, and some of our most precious freedoms will be in jeopardy.
Through extremism the enemy is able to bring disrepute upon the entire movement or truth. Satan knows very well that when the church becomes unified he is doomed. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the church (singular), but they can prevail against the churches (plural). The gates of hell are the doors through which hell gains his access. When the church comes into unity these doors will be shut. Spiritual authority is multiplied with unity (i.e. One can put a thousand to flight, but two can put ten thousand to flight). Because of this, division is the number one strategy of the enemy. Presently, the enemy’s primary strategy to destroy the pro-life movement is to push it to the extremes that will bring about its own destruction, and also use it to increase the division in the church. This strategy is presently working.
As James so eloquently stated:
Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace (James 3:13-18).
As Christians we should judge every movement or action that we are called to participate in by whether it is “wisdom from above,” or from below. If what we are doing is going to bring forth the fruit of righteousness, it must be “sown in peace by those who make peace.”
One of Satan’s greatest successes in bringing and maintaining division between people is to keep us judging movements, churches or teachings by their most extreme elements. In this way liberals look at conservatives and see the KKK. Conservatives look at liberals and see communists. It is a primary strategy of the enemy to have us knowing each other by caricatures rather than by the Spirit. This drives us farther apart and decreases the possibility of unity that the enemy fears so much.
Most of the church is simply asleep to its calling. One great contribution of the prolife movement has been to wake-up at least some of the church to get them to do something. One of the great problems of this church age is the Laodicean spirit of lukewarmness, and the zeal that the pro-life movement has helped to stimulate in some is no small accomplishment.
However, the church is not just called to do something, but to follow the Lamb where He is going. One of the reasons for the Laodicean spirit that prevails in much of the church is because she is simply warn out from all of the causes and projects that have not born true spiritual fruit. Activism that is not in submission to Him will ultimately result in an even greater retreat by those who are injured by the extremes—and there will be injury. We need zeal, but for the Lord and His purposes. Anything less is merely “zealotry” that is just another form of humanism, even fanaticism, regardless of how righteous the goals are. It is not just sacrifice, but obedience that counts.
Do you think that abortion should be legalized?
No. I do not believe that we should legalize murder, and I do believe that abortion is murder. How can we prosecute and give such severe penalties to someone for destroying a condor egg and not do the same for someone who destroys a developing human being? Scripture teaches that we were known by God before the foundation of the world. Both Paul and Jeremiah claimed to have been called by God before they were in their mother’s womb. With God life obviously begins even before conception, but it certainly must be identified by us as a life after conception.
The Laws of Nature Have Already Been Passed
It is no accident that the abortion issue is rising to the forefront of social issues. It is also far from a settled issue even among believers, and it is most improbable that unbelievers are going to accept the Christian, or Biblical position on abortion. The resolving of this issue will require a greater maturity and wisdom than has been required of our nation before. But the issue of abortion does not have to be fought just on the Biblical position— nature itself is a witness that abortion is a profound evil and sin against our own existence.
Every great culture, civilization, and empire eventually comes to some crisis point which determines if it will live or die. In each case the crisis has arisen from the erosion of its moral fabric. Few empires, or civilizations, have been overthrown by enemies from without; they have almost all perished from the cancer of selfcenteredness, which is often the result of their prosperity. Cancer is a cell that consumes for its own purposes without regard to the rest of the body. In a sense, cancer is the personification of self-centeredness. Western civilization now has a potentially fatal cancer. We will either do the required surgery and remove it, or we will be destroyed by it.
In many areas, western civilization has risen to the highest standards of honor, justice, morality and the esteem for life. It is apparent that these qualities are the foundation of western progress. Now those foundations are being tested. The issue is not just abortion, it is the value we will give to life. The question is—can duty, honor and the sacred place of life overcome the growing cancer of selfcenteredness?
In nature, the preservation of life is the most basic and powerful motivation. Because of this, excepting only a few of the most base forms of species, family is a primary drive of life. There are few creatures that will not quickly and instinctively sacrifice their own lives to protect their young. It was no accident that the very first test of Solomon’s wisdom was concerning the issue of a mother’s sanctity for life. The very first test of wisdom for any government is its commitment to the sanctity of life. Any parents who would sacrifice their own young are not only sub human, but would have difficulty finding acceptance even in the animal kingdom.
There will be no peace of mind or peace on earth until life is esteemed above selfish ambition or convenience. It is not only unnatural for a mother to destroy her child, born or unborn, but it reveals a fundamental departure from civilization to embrace a barbarism in its most base and inhuman form. The resolution of the abortion issue gives us the opportunity to provide the world leadership in finding even higher standards of morality, justice and the esteem for life. The failure to resolve it with courage and honor, not just with law, will certainly leave a major crack in our foundations, which must ultimately lead to tyranny of the most frightening kind.
Rising Above Law
Just because something is legal, that does not make it right. There are fundamental laws that prevail in nature which reveal a great deal more wisdom than politicians have been able to display. True morality does not have much to do with mere legal compliance; true morality is doing what is right. A civilization that is not based on law will be open to despotism and tyranny. But a civilization that cannot rise above the law to live by what is not just legal, but what is also moral, has lost its humanity and its potential for true greatness. Lawlessness always results in tyranny. The inability to rise above Law will also result in tyranny. The preservation of life is fundamental to both nature and morality.
Even so, can we cast stones at the mother who aborts her child if we are sacrificing our living children at the altars of the petty gods of mere selfish ambition and personal success? Could even the greatest success of our enterprises be interpreted as anything but a terrible human failure if we lose the souls of our own children in the process? Who can count the “successful” Christian businessmen, sportsmen, coaches and even church leaders, who have accomplished their goals only to say that they would trade everything just to have their families back. The first condition that God said was not good was for man to be alone—and it is not good, and that is exactly where we will end if we do not give our families the priority they deserve.
Spiritual Abortion
In 1989 I had a spiritual experience in which I was caught up into the presence of the Lord. In this experience I was a witness to the anger of the Lord over abortion. To my astonishment, His anger was directed at the church and not the heathen. He stated that if the church had not aborted the spiritual seeds that He had planted in her, for missions, outreaches and even the simple witness to our neighbors, then the heathen would not be living in such darkness and would not be aborting their natural seed. He said that the church was aborting His spiritual seed for all of the same reasons that the heathen were aborting their unborn—because of our selfishness, because these “children” would be expensive and we did not think we could afford them, because we did not want to give them our time. He said that judgment would come upon our country because of the evil of abortion, but that He was going to start with His own household first! How many of those teenage girls and young women would not be wanting abortions now if we had responded to the Holy Spirit when He tried to move us to witness to them? It is time for us to quit flailing at the branches and put the ax to the root of the tree, and our own tree first!
Abortion must be stopped, but it is now far beyond the government’s ability to stop it. That does not excuse the government for not trying, but the only thing that can stop abortion in this country now is a revival or another great awakening. So I, as a believer, will give the majority of my attention to obedience, seeking revival, while I will give my vote to those I feel have the proper stand on the issues, with their stand on abortion certainly being one of the most important. I do believe that in a revival atmosphere effective laws can be passed that will help against this evil, just as Finney’s revivals helped to spark our government’s actions against slavery. Without revival the same laws would be useless— the people will simply break the law on a scale that the government could do little about.
It is fundamental at this time that the church repent of her own sins, and then realize the Source of her power if she is going to accomplish anything of significance with abortion or any other issue. As Paul explained to the Corinthians, “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and we are ready to punish all disobedience whenever your obedience is complete” (II Corinthians 10:3-6).
When our obedience is complete we will then have the authority to deal with “all disobedience,” but it will not be just with demonstrations, but with demonstrations of power that can accomplish far more.
How should the church respond to homosexuality?
If we believe that the Bible is God’s word to us we must understand that homosexuality is sin and must be dealt with as sin. So we should ask the question: should the church tolerate sin? Now that gets a little sticky. Most of us are still struggling with some problems that would have to fall under the sin category. “Outbursts of anger” and “strife” are listed right along with immorality, idolatry and sorcery, as works of the flesh in Galatians (5:19-21). If we tried to remove everyone from the church who became angry there would not be many left. So where do we draw the line?
Perversion and the Release of Plagues
However, the Lord did not call every sin in the Bible an “abomination” and “perversion” like He did homosexuality. The Lord only named those sins abominations that were especially repulsive to Him, or that were especially corrupting and destructive to society, and homosexuality falls into that category. The Lord destroyed Sodom for this sin and there is a point at which the Lord will judge a nation for the spread of this sin, because of its corrupting influence.
Paul called homosexuality a sin “against nature” in Romans 1:26, and promised that those who practiced it would receive “in their bodies the penalty of their error” (verse 27). A.I.D.S. is an obvious example of this penalty. Biblically we can see that most plagues have their origin in the spirit, as the result of widespread sin. The characteristics of the plague usually reflect the sin that has released it. A.I.D.S. is a virus that causes the destruction of the immune system, or the body’s defenses. Homosexuality and other forms of perversion are the cause of the release of A.I.D.S., and those sins do destroy a society’s defenses against evil in all forms.
God Loves Gays
So how should the church respond to homosexuals? Love them! Love them because God does, who “desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (I Timothy 2:4). God loves homosexuals and desires their salvation. God is love and even His judgment, through plagues or other means, is a result of His love—it is His last call to repentance that they might be saved.
True spiritual authority is founded upon compassion (i.e. Jesus felt compassion for the sheep who were without a shepherd, so He became their shepherd). The church will not have any true authority over this problem until she loves those with the problem. When we get into shouting matches with gays we are only multiplying the very demon we are seeking to cast out. Remember that “outbursts of anger” and “strife” are listed right along with “immorality, impurity and sensuality” as works of the flesh in Galatians 6.
Does this mean that we should just open our churches, our schools and our families to the influence of homosexuals? No. Homosexuality is a genuine threat to the very foundations of our social order, and it will become an increasingly blatant threat to our religious liberty, which is the greatest threat to their particular sin. But Satan will not cast out Satan. If our confrontation of this sin is not in the right spirit then we are multiplying the power of the evil we are seeking to cast out. This may come as a shock, but the church must also repent of her part in being a major cause for the release of homosexuality in society.
Homosexuality and Worship
The cause of the release of homosexuality in society is the result of the departure from true worship. Men were created to be worshippers; if they are not devoted to the proper worship of the Creator they will fall to worshipping the creation, which Paul explained in the first chapter of Romans to be the cause of homosexuality.
Music and other forms of art were talents given to men so that they could express their adoration for God. Using our spiritual gifts, or natural talents, in adoration for God is the highest form of fulfillment we can know on this earth. Many of the most gifted and talented artists in history were homosexuals, who, I believe, fell to homosexuality because there was no proper outlet in the church for their form of worship through the arts. Therefore, they would turn to worshipping the creation instead of the Creator. Homosexuals who are delivered from their sin, and given a proper outlet for the gifts that God has given to them, will become some of the most pure worshippers of the Lord, and will help to release true worship in the church.
The church is called to be the light of the world. If the world is falling into increasing darkness, we should not blame it on the government, or even society, but on the church. The answers to all of societies problems are spiritual, not political. When we seek to combat social and moral problems, we must have the truth that sets people free, not just condemn and alienate them.
Homosexuals Can Also Be Good Citizens
As stated, one of the basic delusions that has enabled Satan to perpetrate his destructive divisions is to have us judging other movements, cultures, etc., by their most extreme elements. This applies to homosexuals as well. They are not all out trying to seduce children, just as all men are not rapists. The overwhelming majority of homosexuals are peaceful, law abiding and good citizens. Many homosexuals are committed to just one partner for life, and are appalled at the thought of seducing a child, or anyone else. This still does not justify the sin, but it is also a sin for us to misjudge others, and the church is doing a great deal of that because of the influence of our own extremists.
Homo-sect-uality
There is a “spiritual homosexuality” that the church must be delivered from if we are going to have spiritual authority over this sin. Spiritual homosexuality is having relations only with your own kind—it is sectarianism.
A root of homosexuality is the fear of rejection, which pushes one towards isolation and the compulsion to stay away from those who are different. Men and women represent the ultimate human differences, and almost everyone has to overcome the fear of rejection to cross the bridge to a relationship with the other sex. The same is true in the church—it is the insecurity of much of the leadership that causes them to refrain from any kind of relationship with those who are different. This results in sectarianism that is a subtle form of spiritual homosexuality.
An important key to the deliverance of one who is in the bondage of homosexuality is not to reject them, but to love and accept them—not their sin, but them. “Perfect love casts out fear...” (I John 4:18). One of the remarkable characteristics of the Lord’s own ministry, which is to be the model for all true ministry, is that He was the friend of sinners. Not only did He feel comfortable around them, but even more amazing, they felt comfortable around Him. Jesus did not condemn sinners, He changed them by loving them. This is not to imply that He did not challenge their sin, but He did it with genuine love, not out of fear and rejection. This enabled Him to share the truth that would set them free. not just heap more condemnation on them.
We must learn to treat sinners the way Jesus did, with open arms and the answers to their problems. The answer is not to alienate them further, but to reach out to them with genuine love and help, always remembering that the majority are not like the extreme caricatures we have often made them into, just as most Christians are not the caricatures that they tend to see us as.
What do you now think of Bill Clinton as President?
Some of Bill Clinton’s initial acts as President were embarrassing, but they were not unexpected. I believe that the Lord is going to accomplish some significant and profound changes for the good of our government through President Clinton, if the church prays for him, which I believe many are now doing. I am also expecting it to take time, at least two years before we see some of these changes—for the church’s sake. We, the church, must learn that we cannot expect the government to do our job, and we have been expecting it to for some time. We cannot continue to get our marching orders from the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, or any other party—we must learn to be led by the Holy Spirit Who was given to us for that reason.
We often try to change men’s hearts by changing their minds. The Lord tries to change men’s minds by changing their hearts, and that is the way He is working in Bill Clinton. “God resists the proud, but gives His grace to the humble” (James 4:6), and one of the basic characteristics that the Lord has found in Bill Clinton is a genuine humility. More than anything else, our president needs God’s grace, and the Lord is going to give it to him.
True humility can also make one overly sensitive to the pressures and opinions of others, and I believe it will take President Clinton a while to learn to take his own stand and learn to lead on the level of authority he has been entrusted with. I pray that he can do this while maintaining a humility that is founded upon God’s grace. To have that position and stay in touch with the people is almost impossible, but to stay in touch with God may be even more difficult. He will need all of the grace he can get, and I hope that the church does not stop praying for him, or become discouraged because of faltering he will likely do at times.
Wrong Policies, But Not a Wrong Heart
I also believe that many of President Clinton’s motives are misunderstood, even if, in some cases, his policies may be wrong. He has been the witness to some cruel and tragic gay bashing that he is on a personal crusade to eliminate. I do not agree with how he is seeking to do this, but I can appreciate his reasons for it.
It is also true that it was a very respected Southern Baptist pastor who convinced Clinton that life does not begin until birth because he said the Hebrew word for “life” was “breath.” He does not feel that we can take a dogmatic stand on abortion when the New Testament is completely silent on the issue, much less make it a litmus test for faith. There are many sincere Christians that feel the same way. I do not agree with this position, but I understand it, and certainly would not dispute one’s faith because of it, as many Christians have tragically done to their brothers and sisters.
A Bigger Issue
As difficult as it may be for believers to accept, the Lord did not place Bill Clinton in office so that he could deal with our social problems. The Lord is going to use him to open some of the world’s most difficult regions to the gospel. More will be said about this in due time, but presently, to do so could jeopardize many people. I believe that we will see during his administration, the church awakening to her own responsibility for the social problems, and missions to one of the most critical regions of the world.
Is it possible for a true believer to be a political liberal?
Yes. There are many sincere Christians who are political liberals. Unfortunately, many see more genuine caring for the poor and the oppressed among liberals than they do among conservative Christians. Some politicians have stated that when they see Christians caring more for the needy than the liberals do, they will start listening to the church more than the liberals.
Personally I tend to view liberal and conservative politics like Winston Churchill, who said: “If a man is not a liberal when he is twenty he has no heart. If he is not a conservative when he is forty he has no mind.” I agree with the liberals that we must take care of the needy and the oppressed, but I just disagree with the premise that the government should, or even can, do it.
There are some people who really do need charity and will need it their entire lives. I believe that “the poor you will have with you always” because God has placed them here as an opportunity for us to love and help others, and it is a great privilege to be able to do it. But when we try to do this through the government it becomes depersonalized and institutionalized, not to mention the fact that it will get so bogged down in waste and inefficiency that only a fraction of the resources will actually reach the needs of the people. Also, when a charity becomes institutionalized it has a way of dehumanizing the people and perpetuating a dependency on the institution. Many times the government’s cure for society’s ills has proven worse than the disease.
I also think that the church and the needy have all greatly suffered from the church’s recent tendency to expect the government to do its job, in serving the poor and needy, or establishing and upholding moral standards. I believe that we can point the whole tendency of the government to try to be the answer for all of our problems on the failure of the church to live up to her mandate. I fully expect the government to degenerate into socialistic delusions until the church stands up to do her job. Maybe revival is not a “cure all,” but I really cannot think of any of our problems that it would not cure.
Is it wrong for us to seek to have moral laws passed?
No. Laws do have a place in restraining the lawless. When the lights went out in New York, men became animals and plundered without restraint. Laws kind of act like streetlights and burglar alarms in society. Without them the world would be in chaos. But the church’s mission is not just to keep the street lights and alarms on, but to remove the desire in men’s hearts to do wrong.
The government and the church have two different functions and it was right for our forefathers to distinguish them. It is wrong for the government to try to do our job and it is wrong for the church to try to do the government’s job.
When the church gets diverted from its primary purpose because it is overly concerned with the government, the church will fail in its commission. It is noteworthy that the Roman Emperor during the first century was as morally corrupt and cruel as possibly any despot in the world today. How did the apostles respond to him? They exhorted the church to pray for him. Not only abortion, but infanticide, was widely practiced in the Roman Empire. How did the apostles address this tragic problem? They did not organize protests and civil rebellion—they gave themselves to revealing the path to life through the cross.
Jonathan Edwards had one anointed sermon that accomplished far more for the morality of this country than all of the laws that were on the books at that time. I do think that a large percentage of the church in America is being distracted from the true commission of the church by an overemphasis on politics, but I do not agree that there should be no emphasis. I believe that protests and demonstrations can also have a place in a democratic society, which is why one of our basic rights is the freedom to assemble. I do not believe that these are the function of the church, and I believe that those who are seeking to mobilize the church for these actions are distracting the church from her true calling. The church’s authority is not found in the power to demonstrate, but in demonstrations of power.
If your prophecy of Bill Clinton becoming a great president is dependent on the church teeing obedient in praying for trim, is this not an escape for you in case the prophecy does not come true?
I suppose that it is, but it is not meant to be. I’m sure that if it does not come true we will still take the heat for it anyway. But this issue is so much bigger than how people perceive us, I just cannot be concerned about that. The truth is that we tried to convey this message just as faithfully as we possibly could in the way we felt the Lord conveyed it to us. We believe that the destiny of not only our president, but our country, will depend on the church’s faithfulness, in prayer and to her calling. It is simply incomprehensible when I consider the weight of this issue for me to be concerned about how we are personally perceived in this. In my opinion, if it comes true the faultfinders are still going to find fault, so I do not intend to waste my time worrying about how we are perceived.